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Posted: April 02, 2007 07:39 pm
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not a bts member!

Group: Admin
Posts: 2575
Member No.: 27
Joined: September 17, 2004

I only post this up as a notice to others. What follows is a series of emails between my self and two members of the American Tarantula Society Committee about the use of my written material that was used in their Forum Magazine. The correspondence is in it full and unaltered state with my emails written in Blue and the emails from the ATS written in Orange. If like me the correspondence starts to bore you after the first few lines then please if nothing else just read the last summing up statements of mine so that you are made aware of the situation.

Mr Mumford

I am writing to you because it has come to my attention that material that was written by me, Chris Sainsbury has been published in the American Tarantula Society Forum Magazine.

The edition I refer to is Volume 15, Number 3 2006 and the piece of writing can be found on page 23 of the PDF version of this magazine under the name of Tescos 07-26-2006, 04:03 PM.

So this brings me to a few questions that I hope you can answer for me.-

What is my piece of writing doing in this edition of the ATS forum magazine?
Why I was not asked if it was ok for my piece of writing to be included in this edition of the ATS forum magazine?
Why have I not been told that my piece of writing has been included in this edition of the ATS forum magazine?

Now I have looked all over the ATS internet forum “http://atshq.org/forum/index.php “ and as yet at the time of this writing (20th March 2007, 21.20hrs CET) I and others with whom I have corresponded with on this matter, and who have also been looking, have failed to find any mention, indication or otherwise that states that by posting on the ATS internet forum, wavers any copyright that you have on any posts you make on there. This being the case please explain why the ATS has used my piece of writing in its forum magazine without my consent.

I would also like to direct you towards this link that you may find rather interesting in regards to my complaint.


And even more interesting is the following that I found in ATS_enthusiast@yahoogroups.com.-

In ATS_enthusiast@yahoogroups.com, "Mike ''troll''" <tqe@...>
xtremejm2002 wrote:
> As a newer enthusiast(on the computer anyway), I have been printing
> every piece i can find on T's.

geez i sure hope you are respecting people work by not printing out copy
written material with out permission, there are laws regarding such things. you might also be interested to know that a photo lacking someone's copyright on it is still considered copy written under the law

(im not sure about where it stands if the photo has been posted to a public forum)

> Well, it saddens me to see some of
> the top people in the field of arachnology to go so low as to charge
> to get photos of the species they have....$10 a pic..are you kidding
> me????...what a joke.

wake up and small the coffee do you really think they are doing what they do for free, people need to make a living and being an arachnologist or photographer or webmaster really doesn't pay all that much if at all (unless your really good at it). $10 to own a print of a photo is pretty darn cheap if you ask me heck if someone wanted to print out one of my photos id charge them twice that a pop and still feel
as if i gave the person a good deal. there is a lot of time and effort involved in photographing Ts and processing them for display on the web... im gonna stop ranting here and go back to bed before i #### people off, i know you weren't referring to me but being an artist it really gets my goat when i hear people saying my (or anyone's) work should be made free for people to use as they please.
Mike "troll" Dame
Martinez, Ca. USA

American Tarantula Society As secretary for the American Tarantula Society I have sent this email to you in the hope that either you can pass it on to whomever it applies to or if you can give answers to my questions please do so.


Chris Sainsbury /aka Tescos


I'm not the right person to talk to about this. Rest assured that I will forward it to the correct people. I'll let them answer your questions ok?


Ok Mr Mumford

No problem. I look forward to receiving an explanation.


Chris Sainsbury

Dear Mr. Sainsbury-

It has come to my attention (via an email forwarded to me by ATS Secretary Patrick Mumford) that you are upset by the reproduction of a correspondence from yourself (using the alias “Tescos”) in the ATS Forum Magazine. The correspondence in question was posted in response to a query made by another site member of our public message boards at www.atshq.org.

Our use of your correspondence is no different from a magazine or newspaper printing a letter from a reader. Your post did not represent a stand-alone article (which we would have gotten permission to use before publishing) but instead was a correspondence that was part of a discussion among other hobbyists. The post was credited to you (or at least your screen name) and the electronic version (the PDF) even includes a link to the original discussion at www.atshq.org.. This represents a fair use of the correspondence we receive on our website.

In addition, you may have missed the thread from Associate Editor Rhys Brigida (who compiles and edits the “Electronic Arachnid” column in which your correspondence was used) in which he asks that anyone who does not wish their posts to be reproduced in the magazine to send him a message stating that. He posted this not too long before you made the post in question. We have made this post a “sticky” thread so it will be easier to find in order to avoid this type of misunderstanding in the future. You may view it here:
While we do not accept your accusation of copyright infringement, we will respect your wishes and avoid using any material from you in the future. It is too late to do anything about the material in 15:3. I’m sorry that our use of your correspondence has offended you so.


Wade Harrell
President, American Tarantula Society

Mr Harrel

Many thanks for the reply but I am going to question a few points that you brought up. I hope you don’t mind.
First you say that the use of my “correspondence” is no different from a magazine or newspaper printing a letter from a reader. This is very untrue. When people write to a newspaper or the like it is often with the hope that their letter will appear in the next paper edition. This is I am told why newspapers etc. often have a readers views section or something of the like. I have never heard of someone writing on a internet forum in the hope of or even expecting their material to be published in a journal of some sort.

Just because my written material that was used was not an article it still does not give the ATS any rights to publish it. What I wrote be it correspondence or other wise still belongs to me and me alone.

I do not argue that my material was not credited to me, all be it very weakly and not in the professional manor that I would have expected from the ATS, but then as I was not asked or even Informed to the fact that my material was being used then maybe my expectations are a little high?

In your view this was a fair use of my material, but in mine and everybody else’s view that I have talked to over this matter it has not been. Would you have done the same with any picture that I had posted for example? What stops you taking my posts from other web sites and using them in the journal without my permission?
Really all it boils down to is that all you had to do was ask. How hard is this?

Thank you for pointing out the post by Rhys Brigida. I must admit that I have never viewed this post before. Now on a closer look I can see why I have never viewed this post before and why I think that a number of other people have not viewed it either. Let me explain.-

From my notes, I joined the ATS internet forum on 12th May 2006. Before I joined I read the rules of the forum etc and started to post in area of the forum that held the greatest interest for me i.e. the “tarantula” section and “other spiders” section. I don’t even think that I had ever even take a look on the other sections of the board except on that first day that I joined so I could see what was where and where my interest areas on the board were.

Now that post by Rhys Brigida was made in the “General” area of the board on 23rd June 2006. That’s posted over a month later than when I joined and in a part of the forum that I never visit. Hmmm.

This has got me thinking. At the time of this writing that same posts has been viewed 234 times. Now the forum has 3748 members, 898 of which are active. Something tells me that I am not the only one who has not seen this post or are even aware that the ATS feels that they are well within their rights to use other peoples posted material in the ATS Forum Magazine.

Making the thread a “sticky” goes some way but maybe if you would post this information in the forum Rules which has had 1284 views it would at least go some way to informing the users of the web site. Or better yet, instead of just taking the posts for your use in the forum magazine as if you own them, just ask the people who wrote the material before hand.

You may not accept my accusation of copyright infringement but still stands that you have done this by the fact that you never asked my permission to use it or indeed inform me that you had used it.

It might be too late to do anything about my material in 15:3 but it is not too late to make your members extra aware that by posting on the ATS internet forum you waver any rights you may have on the material you post.

Lets get one thing clear. Your use of my material has not offended me. What has offended me is the total lack of asking for permission to use someone material to boost a magazine that people are charged money for. If asked there was every chance that I would have said ok yet I was not given the opportunity to do so. This has shown me a complete lack of professionalism on the ATS’s part and as a result all my input on the forum has now been deleted by me. I wonder as a non member of the ATS how a member would be treated in this matter?

The only wish to respect is the wish of being asked before something is taken.


Chris Sainsbury

Mr. Sainsbury-

Hypothetical situations concerning other websites and photographs are completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. I have already explained to you the ATS position on material submitted on our website, which you obviously disagree with. Other than avoiding using any of your material in the future, there is nothing more I can do for you.


Wade Harrell
President, American Tarantula Society

Mr Harrell

I see by your reply that you did not even read what I wrote. This is rather a let down. Is this the way you pass off all complaints or is it because I am a non member of the ATS that you feel you can dismiss my queries with nothing more than a you can do “nothing more” about this problem that I have brought up. Maybe if you go back and re-read or even read my last email the answer to what you can do for me will more or less jump out at you! Let me give you a rather large hint…

Please Make It More Clear On Your Web Site Forum That By Posting On There It Wavers Your Copyright On Your Posts And That The ATS Can Use Them In The ATS Forum Magazine Without Informing The Original Poster, Unless The Original Poster Says Otherwise.

Or words to this effect. That’s it nothing more. That is all that I ask just let the people know in a fair professional manor. If you find this request unreasonable then I would love to hear your reasons for this.


Chris Sainsbury

Mr Sainsbury-

I read what you wrote, but do not wish to continue this debate, as it serves no purpose. You've already deleted all your material from our website, so it is no concern of yours what disclaimers we post on our site. This is the last communication you will receive from me on this matter.

Thank you for spelling my name correctly this time.

Good day,

Wade Harrell

Mr Harrell

Yes I quite understand the reasons why you do not want to continue this and I think we both know the reasons why no disclaimer will be put on the ATS web site don’t we?
But before I leave you let me show you one of the rules to posting in your forum……

Please do not post copyrighted pictures or text without permission. All materials posted must either be your own or if not, you must have permission to use it from the rightful owner.
This rather makes all you have said a bit of a joke doesn’t it?

This debate could have served a purpose if you had only took into mind what I was saying but alas, the unprofessional attitude shone though in the end even without the rather smarmy comment of not spelling your name correctly, to which I apologize most sincerely to any offence this caused you. This was not my intention and was just a typing error. I am sure that I made many other spelling and grammar mistakes in my emails so I say sorry for this also, but not being the brightest spark in the box, the art of writing has always been hard work for me.

A rather disappointed sincerely

Chris Sainsbury

To sum up then it appears that by posting on the ATS forum you automatically lose any copy write on the posts you make, and the ATS can do what ever they want with this material.
You may be wondering why I give a dam about informing you of this when the ATS doesn’t. You may also be thinking to yourself “Christ Chris get a life, it is after all only a post on a forum” and I do not mind you thinking this either but, let me put it to you like this.
Would you not like to know about it when anything that was written by you was used and published in a magazine of any kind.
Would you not liked to be asked before hand if it was ok to use your material however trivial it may be?
Would you not like to receive in hard form a copy of the material that was published? After all it is nice to show such things to friends and family, and yes it does make you feel good about yourself when you do this.
If your material is to be read by many people who do not have the internet would you not like them to know the real name of the author instead of some nick name?

I have closed this thread as I am not looking for a discussion over such matters as I feel everyone can make up their own mind what is or isn’t important to them.
I also am not trying to persuade you to stop posting on this site or stop being a member of the ATS as whether you do/are or don’t/aren’t doesn’t concern me.
All this post is for is to make you aware of facts concerning your posts on this site, nothing more.

If I ever get to see a clear and fair statement / notice about the issue of posts on the ATS forum then this post will off course be removed.

Also in regards to the ATS copy write in the emails……well respect mine and I may respect yours.

All the best

Copyright © Chris Sainsbury 2012
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the big turnip supplier opposes any long-term, large scale, wild-caught collecting on principle and opposes any collecting that breaks the wildlife and conservation laws of that particular country.

They forgot to write.... !!!UNLESS YOU BELONG!!!!
The nets best T site
[b]Please do not use my photos without my permission!

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