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Ray Gabriel
Posted: May 31, 2007 12:02 am
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In the UK we have a think called the Dangerous Wild Animals Act.

Personnally I think it is a good thing, with a few things which need to be ironed out.

I have recently deleted 2 adverts for Lactrodectus as these are coverd by the Act.

I would rather upset one or two people by deleting thier adverts than see the Tarantula Store and its owners come into dissrepute because some idiot bought something dangerous which was advertised on this site and got bitten / stung and ended up in hospital. After that the question would be well why were they allowed to be advertised in the first place if people need a licence to keep them? resulting in some very happy lawyers.

As far as I am concerned this is not for discussion or debate.

If people want to buy DWA listed species then buy them from another site with less morals.

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Trevor Parsons
Posted: May 31, 2007 06:39 am
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I understand that the T-store is UK based, but lets say for arguement sake it was me that posted it, and also for arguement sake Laura and Cedrik we're the ones interested in them. Techincally the whole transaction would take place outside of DWA territory.

I saw one Latrodectus post, but I didn't pay attention to where the seller originated.

In the end maybe it would be easier just to block all DWA posts.



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Flogger
Posted: May 31, 2007 08:45 am
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I was the one who was selling L.hesperus and I think it's quite weird that a forum like this focuses on rules about certain species, because it's illegal I suppose? It's illegal to ship spiders through post as well, but everyone does that. Also, I trust anyone who buys them know what they're getting themselves into, so there won't be accidental bites.

Doesn't make any sense IMO.
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nicoladolby
Posted: May 31, 2007 12:41 pm
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I think the issue is about the law, after all its there to protect the purchaser AND the seller. I take on board what you say about postage and you are right, but under DWA regulations you are strictly required to have public liability insurance, correct housing/equipment to ensure safety of the owner AND nearby residents/visitors, most importantly the health authorities need to know about everything so they can have the required treatent on hand should someone get bitten. It would be very tempting to buy an A. robustus or P. nigroventer, but if I did without a DWA licence and someone got bitten; then without the proper medical care on hand (as under normal circumstances it wouldn't be) I would be looking at possible manslaughter charges. Further (and if I'm wrong please correct me on this) were you to have sold me that spider without confirming I had that licence you could face charges too. Of course most people wouldn't be so stupid, we rely on trust and respect, but there are always going to be idiots out there (a prime example being the need for the Dangerous Dogs Act being introduced). Whilst I can't see why buyers who have a DWA licence are unable to post asking for sellers to contact them and things be taken from there without involving the tarantula store, all it takes is one idiot to buy from someone selling on this site and someone to get bitten and then everyone would have problems. Sorry to rabbit on but its important.
Best wishes.

This post has been edited by nicoladolby on May 31, 2007 12:43 pm


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Steve T
Posted: May 31, 2007 03:18 pm
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I think its a good Idea not to allow DWA sales on the forum because some people might not be familiar with the species up for sale and may not know exactly what they are getting themselves into. As for Widow spiders why must people have the ones that can put you in hospital when the false Widows look similar?


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Matthijs Tempelman
Posted: May 31, 2007 04:00 pm
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There are plenty of people keeping Steatoda as well I think Steve wink.gif

I think applying the same rules here as for the BTS bulletin board would be enough, instead of blocking all DWA adverts since there are also quite some non UK people here I think?


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RichardG
Posted: May 31, 2007 06:17 pm
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Personally I fully support DWA regulations in the UK. This list is based on hard science and if you look at the restricted arachnids it doesn't prevent the keeping of that many species:

DWA list

It's far better to restrict the keeping of these potentially dangerous species than to have a situation where anybody can keep anything.

I worry that those counties without such legislation will have serious problems when somebody gets killed by that pet Phoneutria bought at a society show. In such a situation knee-jerk laws could be passed quickly, on a wave of negative publicity, banning the keeping of all venomous arachnids in that country.

If somebody get nailed by an illegal Phoneutria in the UK, its their own fault for keeping it illegally - the buck would stop there (they broke an existing law). There wouldn't be a government quickly trying to patch a loop hole in the law and banning all venomous arachnids because it was the easiest approach to take.

It was only a few years ago that Italians could keep any arachnid - now they are even restricted to which theraphosids they can keep!! And it looks like Poland might be going the same way head.gif

Now when the doomsday senario hits, people in the UK will be able to buy some extremely cheap rare theraphosids from across the channel wink.gif

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Ian M
Posted: May 31, 2007 06:41 pm
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Got to agree with Ray. A few good reasons why not to allow DWA ads and no real reason to allow them.


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Ray Gabriel
Posted: May 31, 2007 07:11 pm
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Thanks for the support Guys,

One small point, the non UK people who live in countrys which do not have licencing can easily get dangerous stuff anyway, so seeing it on this site wont be thier only way to get specimens.

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BakuBak
Posted: August 02, 2007 10:43 am
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I agree with view presented by Richard and understand why Ray act this way how we say it in poland " better blow on cool "

I just geting mad when someon is telling " dangerous spiders " ofcors they can kill You ( few of them ) but it is not a big problem ! - how many kills they have in a year ? -not much or non .... dogs kill many people , here in poland Ive have heard about 2 or 3 kills this summer ... and no one is thinking about banning them ( am not tolking only bout dagerous ones but about common dogs )



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thenovice
Posted: October 30, 2007 08:22 pm
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The problem with some countries is that justice is made for greedy people. it should be enough to state that an animal is dangerous and warn a potential buyer about the problems and precautions he should take. unfortunately in some countries it is encouraged to blame/sue others for your own stupidity (probably because it earns some lawyers a lot of money and keeps elected judges in their big leather seat). In the country where i come from you would get a fine for mocking justice if you'd sue a vendor for selling you a spider that bit you. But hey, then again, we do not have a government (guess where i am from:-))

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thenovice
Posted: October 30, 2007 08:33 pm
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before I am accused of trolling: I do agree with taking the post of the forum, it is not in our interest to get in trouble over that


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nicoladolby
Posted: October 30, 2007 10:16 pm
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QUOTE
where i come from you would get a fine for mocking justice if you'd sue a vendor for selling you a spider that bit you.


Quite right too. If you buy a wild animal that bites and don't take necessary precautions to protect yourself, you can expect sooner or later to get bitten. biggrin.gif
If your country does not have a government, you must be from Iraq! (or is this a trick question?) sdye.gif sdye.gif sdye.gif


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thenovice
Posted: October 31, 2007 12:47 am
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QUOTE (nicoladolby @ October 30, 2007 10:16 pm)
QUOTE
where i come from you would get a fine for mocking justice if you'd sue a vendor for selling you a spider that bit you.


Quite right too. If you buy a wild animal that bites and don't take necessary precautions to protect yourself, you can expect sooner or later to get bitten. biggrin.gif
If your country does not have a government, you must be from Iraq! (or is this a trick question?) sdye.gif sdye.gif sdye.gif

Nope! it's the banana republic of belgium, the finest wackoland in the world.

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_TiMiSdRuNk_
Posted: November 25, 2008 10:14 pm
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Ok this is my first post and i know i will make myself unpopular allready head.gif But i personally want a lactrodectus black widow, i've kept a few steatoda species which are great but surely the whole point in wanting one of these is perhaps the colouring? The danger factor? (Stupid maybe but each to thier own) I used to keep marine fish and i used to have a lion fish which have a very painfull sting! Also you can get hold of frog fish easily which are very closely related to the stone fish (Which as long as you order you can also get). My point here is that you DON'T need a license for these fish (Yes i know there hardly going to escape) same as you DON'T need a license to keep a rottweiler dog or one of those breeds built for fighting which you see on the news all the time are killing children and attacking people due to idiot owners. Sure if dangerous spiders were readily available you would get idiot owners with those to but that doesn't stop the goverment allowing anyone to own these dogs does it? So why should people like you and i who have a real interest in these animals not be allowed to keep them because our house doesn't suit the bill, or some other legal crap they decide to come up with? All i can really say to finish this off is have a look at the stats on spider bite deaths worldwide compared to dog maulings..... wall.gif
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steelyblue
Posted: December 02, 2008 03:00 pm
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QUOTE (_TiMiSdRuNk_ @ November 25, 2008 10:14 pm)
Ok this is my first post and i know i will make myself unpopular allready head.gif But i personally want a lactrodectus black widow, i've kept a few steatoda species which are great but surely the whole point in wanting one of these is perhaps the colouring? The danger factor? (Stupid maybe but each to thier own) I used to keep marine fish and i used to have a lion fish which have a very painfull sting! Also you can get hold of frog fish easily which are very closely related to the stone fish (Which as long as you order you can also get). My point here is that you DON'T need a license for these fish (Yes i know there hardly going to escape) same as you DON'T need a license to keep a rottweiler dog or one of those breeds built for fighting which you see on the news all the time are killing children and attacking people due to idiot owners. Sure if dangerous spiders were readily available you would get idiot owners with those to but that doesn't stop the goverment allowing anyone to own these dogs does it? So why should people like you and i who have a real interest in these animals not be allowed to keep them because our house doesn't suit the bill, or some other legal crap they decide to come up with? All i can really say to finish this off is have a look at the stats on spider bite deaths worldwide compared to dog maulings..... wall.gif

how can you compare dog maulings to spider bite deaths?? thats just ridiculous lol for a start there are MILLIONS of dog owners and just a fraction of people who would keep a dangerous spider.. so where exactly is your point? roll.gif dogs and fish roll.gif
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paul murdoch
Posted: December 02, 2008 03:34 pm
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one of the other main reasons the dwa is in place is to make sure they are housed in a safe and secure manner, certain dwa spec eg. the black widow are capable of living in the uk if they were to escape and there for the potential for causig a wider problem is very real. That said a few years ago i had a hard time convicing an inspecter in gloucestershire that keeping buthids in a plastic container was far safer than glass one`s due to the brake factor.
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Brad Hogan
Posted: February 12, 2009 04:28 pm
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I think DWA license is a must for some species available. The important thing that the DWA should always ensure from my point of view is that it should serve to ensure that potential buyers are fully aware of what they are buying but also that the owners are capable of keeping such animals in a secure holding. If the buyer wnats to risk a bite then so be it but such animals should not be sold to people who are so incompetent that they would think that a suitable tank for something like a large viper or taipan or something is to put a few books on top of the tank and so unecassarily risking escape and so potential danger to neighbours, etc. This is what is important to me and what the DWA should provide from ym point of view.

example from the media (true story believe it or not):
couple have a 6 foot red-tail boa kept in a glass tank. They secure the tank by placing a pile of books on top. Surprise surprise, the boa escapes and the owners said to the papers 'they couldn't understand how it got out' hum.gif

stupid stupid people. this is why we need DWA. just imagine if this was a bushmaster, taipan, gaboon viper or the like. It could have meant a serious bite and possibly death for a neighbour or someone close by and and it would be our responsible hobby/hobbyists that gain a bad reputation as well as the idiots who did it in the first place.

I agree with what you have done Ray.

Sorry about the rant lol,
Brad


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Tescos
Posted: June 07, 2009 06:19 pm
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Due to many Sicarius sp. entering the hobby and the possible potential risks of this/these spiders venom, the "banned selling list" now also includes them.
Cheers
Chris
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the big turnip supplier opposes any long-term, large scale, wild-caught collecting on principle and opposes any collecting that breaks the wildlife and conservation laws of that particular country.

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Paul Fleming
Posted: June 17, 2009 03:33 pm
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I wanted one of those fing.gif


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Vazah
Posted: August 22, 2009 12:03 am
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I believe the DWA is a necessary evil. If anything it will stop idiots from owning extremely dangerous animals. I do not particularly care for the keepers of dangerous animals but more about 3rd party/innocent bystanders.

Do I agree with a ban of DWA adverts? No. Maybe a separate section should be created to make sure that people know that these animals require a licence. But I don't see how legitimate DWA breeders that are advertising an animal should go to a place "of lower morals" to sell them. So maybe consider taking that part out of the original statement.

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Ray Gabriel
Posted: August 22, 2009 01:36 am
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QUOTE (Vazah @ August 22, 2009 12:03 am)
I believe the DWA is a necessary evil. If anything it will stop idiots from owning extremely dangerous animals. I do not particularly care for the keepers of dangerous animals but more about 3rd party/innocent bystanders.

Do I agree with a ban of DWA adverts? No. Maybe a separate section should be created to make sure that people know that these animals require a licence. But I don't see how legitimate DWA breeders that are advertising an animal should go to a place "of lower morals" to sell them. So maybe consider taking that part out of the original statement.

Vaz

[/QUOTE] But I don't see how legitimate DWA breeders that are advertising an animal should go to a place "of lower morals" to sell them. So maybe consider taking that part out of the original statement. [QUOTE]

Nope you wanna buy DWA stuff without a license then of you go buy it somewhere but not here. C ya Later

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Vazah
Posted: August 25, 2009 11:34 am
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Nope you wanna buy DWA stuff without a license then of you go buy it somewhere but not here. C ya Later


I have never expressed the wish to purchase an animal under the license agreement without having a license. I merely was pointing out that breeders owning a license and wishing to offer their animals should not be classified as people with lower morals as you were indirectly implying with your opening post. L2read!!!1

On a different note, I take offence to your implicit accusation of me attempting to buy animals without license! I believe a forum is for the exchange of ideas and opinion. Just because I disagree with you and suggested a small change does not give you the right to turn around a tell me to F*** off. As your avatar implies that you are a moderator, I hope that you will go to any good dictionary and look up the definition of moderator.

But hey, good manners are rare to find in the real world, let alone on the net. I came to this board to find information, advise and exchange ideas, it seems that this is not the place to do so. So I bid you farewell, good Sir!

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Tescos
Posted: August 25, 2009 12:03 pm
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Hi Vazah

To be frank if someone wishes to buy DWA listed species with or without a valid licence it is very easy to do so from many Euopean forums. The main reason why this forum does not allow the selling on them on here is stated here:-

QUOTE
I would rather upset one or two people by deleting thier adverts than see the Tarantula Store and its owners come into dissrepute because some idiot bought something dangerous which was advertised on this site and got bitten / stung and ended up in hospital. After that the question would be well why were they allowed to be advertised in the first place if people need a licence to keep them? resulting in some very happy lawyers.


So as you can see it is to avoid any complications that (however unlikely) could arise from such a sale. The ban is to protect the web site owners, not the buyers and sellers.

Out of interest, if you need a licence to keep them, do you also need a licence to sell them? And if this is the case would the owners of this site also then need a licence to even allow them to be advertised on a UK based web site? If there were costs envolved in this who is willing to pay them?

So much easier just to blanket ban the sales of them on this site. Sorry if this inconvients a few people but, if people really wish to own such animals then I am very sure that this ban on this site will not limit them all that much. wink.gif

I do however agree about your comments regarding this:-
QUOTE
If people want to buy DWA listed species then buy them from another site with less morals.

and can only conclude that it was added because Ray is a bit of an arse! (thats just my humble oppinion though)

Cheers
Chris
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QUOTE
the big turnip supplier opposes any long-term, large scale, wild-caught collecting on principle and opposes any collecting that breaks the wildlife and conservation laws of that particular country.

They forgot to write.... !!!UNLESS YOU BELONG!!!!
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Phil Rea
Posted: August 26, 2009 03:47 pm
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QUOTE (Tescos @ August 25, 2009 12:03 pm)


Out of interest, if you need a licence to keep them, do you also need a licence to sell them? And if this is the case would the owners of this site also then need a licence to even allow them to be advertised on a UK based web site? If there were costs envolved in this who is willing to pay them?

Cheers
Chris
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Yes you do. You either need a personal DWA licence, or a pet shop licence to be in possession of them in the first place. A licence is not required for allowing adverts to be placed smile.gif


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