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RichardG
Posted: June 25, 2005 09:12 am
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So what's the score with captive Hysterocrates?

Hysterocrates ederi
This was the first species available in the hobby and was imported only once by Charpentier from Bioko Island (it does not occur on mainland Africa). This was widely captive bred at the time.

Hysterocrates gigas
This was the next species imported from mainland Africa, Cameroon. Males and young mature females have a thickened tibia on leg IV. Ironically this species is probably not the real gigas, but is "pet trade gigas". However really large females loose the thickened tibia IV (and were often sold as H. hercules). Now you understand why your "real hercules" spiderlings have got thickened tibia IV!!

Hysterocrates crassipes
Also imported from Cameroon/Nigeria. Seems to have an entirely thick leg IV. (I haven't got any specimens of these in alcohol yet).

Hysterocrates scepticus, H. apostolicus, H. didymus
These were imported into the USA from Sao Tome island (they do not occur on mainland Africa). Were bred, but very few made it into Europe and they seem to have died out in USA too.

Hysterocrates hercules
Recently imported from Nigeria. These specimens (male and female) have really thin leg IV even when young (never have thickened tibia IV), and have dark femurs. But these aren't real hercules either!!
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So to recap:
There are 2 distinct species currently been sold as 'H. hercules'.

There are 2 distinct species currently been sold as 'H. ederi' (the real Charpentier originals from Bioko island will be old females, and the newly imported mainland things which are not real ederi).

Captive 'H. crassipes' and 'H. gigas' are frequently cross labeled.

No captive Hysterocrates are correctly identified to species either laugh.gif

Basically the captive Hysterocrates species are so frequently mislabelled that it's almost impossible to be certain that breeding pairs from different sources are the same species. We can only be sure with wild mated females, and breeding pairs of recently wild caught specimens from the same importation.

With this level of confussion, hybrid pairings are inevitable. Advertise for any male Hysterocrates species and it's pot luck what you'll receive. If you aren't 'in the know' you assume they are the same species, produce spiderlings and sell them on as what they were named as (but they could be hybrids).

More worrying still are dealers claiming "these are real hercules" - nobody can claim this roll.gif

Dan's specimens are pet trade "Hysterocrates gigas" - both the male and female had thickened tibia IV (so I'm resonable confident they were the same species).

I would like to apply temporary names to any future imports of wild caught Hysterocrates. i.e. something like Hysterocrates sp. 'Cameroon 1' etc. This way we can ensure we are breeding real species in the future. And back these names up with alcohol reference specimens so that future wild imports can be allocated with the correct temporary name.

However this would fail if people then IDed they own existing captive specimens as 'Cameroon 1' because it "looks the same to me" and we would be back to square one again punnish.gif

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FryLock
Posted: June 25, 2005 09:17 am
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Excellent post Richard thum-up.gif it's a real shame H.ederi have been lost/mixed i had some from Phillip's stock real nice spiders cry.gif.


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Phil messenger
Posted: June 25, 2005 11:37 am
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Hi
That's an excellent post Richard clap.gif thum-up.gif copied & pasted to a word doc wink.gif

that makes my Hystercrates collection consist of X3 Hystercrates sp Cameroon #? and Hystercrates sp unknown (male) luckilly what ever the sp I know where there is a female of the same sp smile.gif


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Niklas Eriksson
Posted: June 25, 2005 01:47 pm
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Oh crap.. I have 1.1 "Hysterocrates ederi" and now I dont know what they are! help.gif

The female is around 6" and the male is around 4".


The male:

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spake01
Posted: June 25, 2005 02:07 pm
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Awesome information! I've also saved a copy of it!

I noticed on Rick West's site earlier today that it mentioned that H. hercules is possibly a jr. synonym of H.gigas. Do you know anything about this?

Since there are probably hybrids now in the pet trade, is it possible for them to be identified as what type of hybrids they actually are (the cross between what two (or more!) species)? Can current DNA testing give this type of information?


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Ray Gabriel
Posted: June 25, 2005 06:47 pm
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Excelent post Mr G.

Spake many of the hybrids in captivity are probably Hybrids of hybrids of Hybrids.
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Catherine
Posted: June 25, 2005 07:05 pm
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Good information. I have one Hysterocrates sp that was sold as hercules. I've never known what it actually was. Hoping one day I will find out. I don't really mind, its still a beautiful spider regardless of what sp/hybrid it is.

For some reason it won't let me load a pic up. Says i can't upload that type of file, but its a JPG? hum.gif help?!


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spake01
Posted: June 25, 2005 09:38 pm
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I've been thinking about purchasing one that is labeled as H. hercules, but this has made me even more skeptical. I do have one H. gigas sling, although I don't know the background of it.


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cryptly
Posted: June 26, 2005 11:37 am
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Thanks a lot for all that info! Excellent post! clap.gif

I was pretty sure my Hystercrates sp. "hercules" wasn't a hercules, but now I'm wondering about my gigas. hum.gif Owell, no matter what they are, they're still good looking tarantulas. biggrin.gif


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Ian M
Posted: June 26, 2005 12:36 pm
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QUOTE (cryptly @ Jun 26 2005, 12:37 PM)
Owell, no matter what they are, they're still good looking tarantulas.  biggrin.gif

I think you just made a very good statement with your last sentence. I too keep a couple of different Hysterocrates spp. I keep them as I like the look of them. I will not be using them for breeding, so in a way I am contributing towards cleaning up the bloodlines for the species.


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Ray Gabriel
Posted: June 26, 2005 03:55 pm
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Just like to comment further on this statement.


>I would like to apply temporary names to any future imports of wild caught >Hysterocrates. i.e. something like Hysterocrates sp. 'Cameroon 1' etc.

I think the country and month of obtaining the wild caught stock chould also be added,

I.E. Hysterocrates sp Cameroon England June 2005, this way we can separate the different shipments comming in which may have specimens from different colecting sites, in different months.

This mens Andy M, Phil and I have Hysterocrates sp Cameroon England June 05,
or Hysterocrates sp Cameroon EJ05

How does ths sound?

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Phil messenger
Posted: June 26, 2005 04:47 pm
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HI

QUOTE
This mens Andy M, Phil and I have Hysterocrates sp Cameroon England June 05,
or Hysterocrates sp Cameroon EJ05



some sound thinking there. 1st one is a bit of a mouth full laugh.gif 2nd = june or july hum.gif

Hystercrates sp Cameroon E06/05 hum.gif


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RichardG
Posted: June 26, 2005 04:50 pm
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QUOTE (Phil messenger @ Jun 26 2005, 04:47 PM)
Cameroon E06/05

How many megapixles does that one have? wink.gif

Sounds good to me.
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Phil messenger
Posted: June 26, 2005 05:01 pm
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QUOTE (RichardG @ Jun 26 2005, 05:50 PM)
How many megapixles does that one have?  wink.gif

gallon.gif

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


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DBaines
Posted: June 26, 2005 05:45 pm
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It seems to me that the only way to solve the problem would be to get rid of all the pet trade hystocrates then import more of the real sp and restart a recorded captive breeding program and then hope that people do not start hybridising again but i know this would be an impossible task to acomplish. cry.gif


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Garrick O'Dell
Posted: December 16, 2005 04:09 pm
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Hello all!

I've had a few different wild-caught (or in one case, captive-hatched from a wild-caught gravid female) Hysterocrates spp. over the past few years, and I wonder if some may be able to piece a few things together to help folks out.

I ask about this annually on various lists, forums, etc., and so far each spider has been called virtually every commonly traded Hysterocrates species hehe.

I saw Richard's post, though, and thought that there's renewed hope fro narrowing them down.

Here's a link with pictures and some details if you've got the time:

Hysterocrates What?!

What I'm guessing from the post is that the one with the bulbous swelling may indeed be H. gigas, but the incrassate tibia never did change. Perhaps the "Specimen 3" female without the swelling had it. I don't know. I acquired her as a rather large adult.
Colud "specimen 2" then be H. crassipes? When I got it, is was supposedly imported from Bioko Island, but I certainly wasn't on the plane, and I trust US tarantula resellers' words about as much as I trust the drunk guy who lives in the park behind my house's opinion on tarantulas.

Cheers,

Garrick

This post has been edited by garrick1 on December 16, 2005 04:10 pm
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RichardG
Posted: December 16, 2005 04:34 pm
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Hi,
Specimen #1 looks like a smaller individual of specimen #3 (or are they the same size hum.gif ). The very first 'gigas' that came into the UK started out with thick tibia-IV (as in #1), but now they are larger and older have lost the thick tibia-IV like your #3. I can't say for certain that yours are the same species though rolleyes.gif

#2 is something totally different and one that I haven't seen in the UK. Looks really interesting too.

Have you taken any recent photos of them?

Cheers,
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Garrick O'Dell
Posted: December 16, 2005 05:13 pm
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QUOTE (RichardG @ Dec 16 2005, 04:34 PM)
Hi,
Specimen #1 looks like a smaller individual of specimen #3 (or are they the same size  hum.gif ). The very first 'gigas' that came into the UK started out with thick tibia-IV (as in #1), but now they are larger and older have lost the thick tibia-IV like your #3. I can't say for certain that yours are the same species though  rolleyes.gif

#2 is something totally different and one that I haven't seen in the UK. Looks really interesting too.

Have you taken any recent photos of them?

Cheers,
gallon.gif

Yeah, specimen #1 was smaller when I first got her. I assume #3 was very old, as she died just 3 years after I got her.
specimen #1 grew to almost her size, but didn't lose the swelling. I sold her a couple years ago as I couldn't find a mate for her. Perhaps one molt later the tibia would've been straw shaped like the larger one.
I don't know if #3 ever had that swelling of the tibia, as I got her when she was quite big already.
If they're the same, though, they may be two different color phases. #1 really held on to her dark colors. The first photo of her standing in her blue water dish is about as lightened up as she got.
#3 would go from black to orange very quickly, perhaps over a matter of a few months.

#2 I still have a molt from, I think. I'll hunt it up if you'd like to have a look.
Again, she was sold as I couldn't find anything that remotely resembled her, much less a male for her.
As it happens, I saw a US reseller with an advertisement for H. scepticus within months of parting with her. The pictures in his advert looked like my girl. I e-mnailed him, and he said he didn't import them, but the importer told him they were form Sao Tome. He had no males of whatever they are, though.

This post has been edited by garrick1 on December 16, 2005 05:15 pm
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RichardG
Posted: August 24, 2006 06:27 pm
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OK, some of our USA friends are getting into Hysterocrates so I think it's time to post pictures, so we can start comparing species.

I got this species from a French guy labelled as "Phoneyusa sp.", unfortunately I only have the one female and he didn't know anything about the spider's original origin (but he had others for sale at the time).

This is not the same species as "gigas" or the thin-legged "hercules" from Nigeria.

But has anybody else got specimens of this species? It's not aggressive either!!

gallon.gif

Note how thin the back legs are compared to the front ones!!

This post has been edited by RichardG on August 24, 2006 06:29 pm

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Timo Raab
Posted: August 24, 2006 06:39 pm
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HI gallon.gif,

unfortunately not. wink.gif


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Michael Olsinia
Posted: August 24, 2006 09:07 pm
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Hi guys, what differentiates Hysterocrates sp, from Phoneyusa sp.?
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CedrikG
Posted: August 24, 2006 10:24 pm
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The leg IV are thiner and .. .well ... every leg are thiner then the gigas
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Brian Kim
Posted: August 24, 2006 11:38 pm
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Hi Richard, interesting spider there


what kind of variations in spermatheca are there in between Hysterocrates group?

since the other thread about Eumenophorinae strikers said thare aren't that much differnece using only strikers for ID key, what else one should look for?
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Timo Raab
Posted: August 25, 2006 05:31 am
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QUOTE (Scourge @ Aug 24 2006, 11:07 PM)
Hi guys, what differentiates Hysterocrates sp, from Phoneyusa sp.?

Hi,

Phoneyusa is after SMITH, 1990 a "taxonomic mess". There are several keyfeatures (which also could posses in other genera) after SMITH 1990:
  • Foveal groove - procurved.
  • Metatarsal scopulae - met. of leg IV, one-third/half scopulate. Not fully scopulate.
  • Tibia of leg IV - not incrassate.
  • Clypeus - moderately narrow to wide.
  • Tarsal scopulate - not divided by setae.
  • Spermathecae - simple seminal receptacles.
  • Tibial spines - spines at apex on varying number.
  • Brush of setae - on femur of palp
  • Tibial spur - absent.
  • Palpal bulb - 1) tapering embolus with shield of bulb. 2) long and short embolus with keel.
    (1) P. bettoni, P. gracilipes, P. gregori. P. rufa; 2) P. bindentata, P. cultridens, P. lesserti)
Reference:
  • SMITH, A. M. (1990c). Baboon spiders: Tarantulas of Africa and the Middle East. London, Fitzgerald, pp. 1-142.



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DavidF
Posted: August 25, 2006 07:27 am
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I received this one as a penultimate male H. gigas. Since receiving him he has matured and died. Sitting in alcohol now. Waiting to cut him up and see what I can see. The most interesting thing (to me) is he appears to have mounds on the labiosternal suture. Not sure if it's visible in the second pic. This is not typical for most Hysterocrates spp. is it? I may be seeing things wrong too though. Pretty sure it's a Hysterocrates due to leg IV thickness prior to maturity. Even after maturity leg IV appears thicker than the others but all segments are more proportionate. Legspan at maturity was approx. 6".

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I've got another mature male I'll add pics of in the next few days. He's quite a bit smaller than this one...a bit different overall actually.
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